Curse

FengShuiBundi · Jun 30, 2005, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Okay, so we know the update and know how it works. Now look at the numbers.

The requirements for getting a minor rune is 1000 faction. That's obscene... that is 20+ wins in Tombs. How is that all related to the effort required in PvE? But that is not the worst.

Say you want an elite skill... 3000 faction.
Best way to get this would be doing 6 high ranked GvG matches.
Lets say that each lasts 30 minutes. It would more likely be higher because to get 500 faction per match, you must play high ranked teams.

3 Hours.
OR!
I can get 7 other people from good guilds (scroll through Fianna vent server) and have at team set up for UW runs. 25000 exp in roughly 35-40 minutes. That means at least 4 runs in the same time period. 25000 x 4 = 100000exp. That is 5 skill points. FIVE!

So you are telling me that PvP gained skills is productive? That it is rewarding? That it is similar to PvE skill gaining? NO! This is the FLAW in a system which is MECHANICALLY PERFECT. It's just numerically challenged. The numbers are so high that it makes it impractical and inefficient to get one's skills through PvP for one's PvP characters.

Why get 1 elite in 3 hours when you can get 5 skill points in that same time period? Sure you have to cap it, but that isn't hard. This is a joke. The numbers should be REDUCED by at least a FACTOR OF TEN.

Arena Net had the right thing in mind, and implemented it perfectly. The system works, but the numbers don't. This may be a way to promote GvG but I know smart guilds would rather do UW runs for their skills. It's easier and faster. Think about it, why blemish one's record to get the skills when they are much more easily attained in PvE?

I'll probobly still be doing UW runs because this system is not as fast to reward as PvE is.

[I'll post more of my ideas here later]

I would like to get your opinion of the effectiveness and efficiancy behind this patch, and what you think it will do to the state of the game. Does anybody feel about this the same way I do?

Dan Mega · Jun 30, 2005, 03:17 PM // 15:17

PVP'ers will feel the same way you do.

As for the PVE players, they feel it is unnecessary whining in a new and untested system.

I don't care either way. I'm just going to deal, after all its a game.

DrSLUGFly · Jun 30, 2005, 03:19 PM // 15:19

you can still unlock the old way. They aren't forcing you to do anything they're giving you another option. This means that whether you agree or not you're in a better state now and stuff will unlock faster because aside from "grinding" to unlock stuff, every time you play PvP you get points added to your faction.

If you don't like the math then think of it like one of those "buy 10, get 50% off the next one" cards.

Algren Cole · Jun 30, 2005, 03:19 PM // 15:19

I don't think PvP players should have to earn anything

UAS UAR!!!!

Weezer_Blue · Jun 30, 2005, 03:21 PM // 15:21

I agree with the above post, but since that will never happen, the original poster. The system is good in concept, but the numbers suck, at the moment.

edit: to below post, if you are talking about me as a rabid PvP fanboy, then I'm not going to lie and pretend I don't support UAS/R just so people don't think i'm one of those cooky weirdo's who "wants everything now". But I do agree with your original topic. If not, then ignore this edit.

FengShuiBundi · Jun 30, 2005, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Wow, way to try and pass of as a rabid PvP fanboy. Didn't work. And if you really are a PvP fan, don't talk like that, it doesn't help our cause, at all.

Anyway... I am really worried about what this is going to do to the better PvPers in the game. I personally am going out and buying Battlefield 2. I will still play GW but probobly not with the passion that I did in the betas.

Arena Net, how could you go so far? Implement such a great system that rewarded PvP, yet have the rewards so far away?

One would think that by making the Faction costs lower by a factor of 10 or 16, it would still be on par with PvE because PvP is much more challenging. Lowering it decreases time necessary to unlock, and allows more time to just play PvP. If we can unlock the stuff as fast as possible, we can enjoy the PvP more. Otherwise we are very gradually improving and not having the fun we used to in PvP because we can't just choose what we want to use.

Moskel · Jun 30, 2005, 03:30 PM // 15:30

To get your character to the point you could farm UW/FoW for skill point xp how many hours did you spend on it? A lot, probably at least 50-100. So even after you get the skill points in PvE, if its an elite you have to get a capture signet and go get the skill. Some skills are only available from random spawning bosses in difficult locations inside of missions. Those skills may be a lot faster to unlock with PvP.

The real increase for the faction unlocking to me though is not skills, thats just going to be something I do with faction after I have all of the runes and max weapon upgrades. I don't know about you but I've spent a horrid amount of time rune and weapon farming to still not have quite a few superior runes or max weapon upgrades (sure 17% enchantment duration is almost 20% but its not 20%, sure +27 health is almost +30 but its not). You could litterally spend FOREVER in PvE trying to unlock every max weapon upgrade.

A final point is, when introducing something like this it is much better to have the numbers too high and have to lower them than it is to bring them in too low and have to raise them. I pulled down over 1000 faction in around an hour last night, if the numbers were reduced by as many people are claiming a factor of 10-16 I would have unlocked between 10-16 skills in one hour of play, that is WAY more than you can even with the PERFECT PvE group doing UW/FoW. Hell that is even faster than I could get skill points herding fleshies with my W/E.

john little · Jun 30, 2005, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Think about it, why blemish one's record to get the skills when they are much more easily attained in PvE?

Because all the moaning PvP'ers didn't want to have to do any/much PvE. You now have the option to unlock stuff by doing the thing you consider fun, PvP. If you don't find PvP fun, you can play PvE. If you don't like PvE, quit.

The skills are easier to attain in PvE if you already have a character that far into the game. So if you don't mind PvE, get them that way. The new system is good for the runes/item upgrades/skills you don't find in casual play (for the mixed PvP/PvE'er), and provides an alternative to PvE 'grinding'.

Ellestar · Jun 30, 2005, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiBundi

I can get 7 other people from good guilds (scroll through Fianna vent server) and have at team set up for UW runs.

Ok, i'll do it, but tell me where is that Fianna vent server

Edit: Of course, i don't need it for UW group, i never was there, i don't really plan to go there and i'm on Euro anyway.
But probably there are some nice players for PvP or some build discussion etc.

DrSLUGFly · Jun 30, 2005, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

I don't think PvP players should have to earn anything

UAS UAR!!!!

Yeah man! Earning things sucks! We're in the 21st century after all...

Night · Jun 30, 2005, 03:47 PM // 15:47

You know after reading all of the threads detailing how the fixes apparently didn't meet everyone's needs, I hope ANet just says for now on there will be no game procedure/archeticutural changes and that we will have to deal with it. No offense but I am boggled at the number of threads that talk about how everything is unfair, when it was unfair and is changed, it becomes too easy, they nerfed this, they nerfed that. They made us work harder, didn't make us work enough. Personnally after beta testing RYL and WoW, playing a few online game like D2, I am quite pleased with GW. Ya I'd like a few additions and some more content but nothing I feel a need to make thread detailing how my gaming enjoyment has just been flushed down the toilet.

There is a point and counter point to every argument as far as why they should or shouldn't change something and how something is good for PVE but not PvP and vice versa. Opinions are much like buttholes, everyone has one. Can't folks just enjoy the game or is it if they don't whine and complain, they will explode? Dunno seems awfully quick to complain about changes and fixes that aren't even 24 hours old.

Loviatar · Jun 30, 2005, 03:49 PM // 15:49

pvp person who is complaining

long before this update came out a large number of you were saying

*JUST LET US EARN IT IN PVP WHICH IS FUN FOR US.

I DONT CARE IF IT TAKES LONGER THAN PVE BECAUSE I WILL BE DOING WHAT IS FUN FOR ME*

right

john little · Jun 30, 2005, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

There is a point and counter point to every argument as far as why they should or shouldn't change something. Opinions are much like buttholes, everyone has one. Can't folks just enjoy the game or is it if they don't whine and complain, they will explode? Dunno seems awfully quick to complain about changes and fixes that aren't even 24 hours old.

With online games in particular, some people think that if they moan and whinge long enough they'll get their way. When they don't, they predict doom and gloom. I don't honestly believe that devs ever really change their long term plans based on moans from fansites, they may take up the odd suggestion, alter something slightly but the core game design tends to be sacrosanct.

Every gamer has their own ideas of their perfect game, and the closer a game gets to that ideal, the more they want it to change to be their idea of perfection. The problem is that thousands of other players probably won't want the chanages and that leads to conflict.

The best thing to do is play devil's advocate and wind them up, it's a good laugh sometimes to see them try and defend their argument, usually resulting in personal attacks. At that point you can be sure that their idea is pointless

Pitdragon · Jun 30, 2005, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by john little

Because all the moaning PvP'ers didn't want to have to do any/much PvE. You now have the option to unlock stuff by doing the thing you consider fun, PvP. If you don't find PvP fun, you can play PvE. If you don't like PvE, quit.

The skills are easier to attain in PvE if you already have a character that far into the game. So if you don't mind PvE, get them that way. The new system is good for the runes/item upgrades/skills you don't find in casual play (for the mixed PvP/PvE'er), and provides an alternative to PvE 'grinding'.

I don't think the problem is that people aren't finding PvP fun, they just don't like having to spend hours playing PvP and burning themselves out on it just so they can play with the build they wanted to play with in the first place.

I agree with the OP in that the skill prices are obscenely high considering there are literally hundreds of skills to unlock. Casual players are getting the shaft, and their options are basically summed up as "become a hardcore player" or "don't play at all".

shadowfare · Jun 30, 2005, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiBundi

...

Say you want an elite skill... 3000 faction.
Best way to get this would be doing 6 high ranked GvG matches.
Lets say that each lasts 30 minutes. It would more likely be higher because to get 500 faction per match, you must play high ranked teams.

3 Hours.

...

I spent three hours trying to get the elite 'Mark of Protection' through the good ol' fashioned way.

Still aint got it.

Acan Vishnu · Jun 30, 2005, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Guildwars is both PvE and PvP. Its entirely possible to play PvE without ever setting foot in the real PvP content, but it isn't possible to do the opposite. If your trying to unlock one complete class through PvP then your looking at something along the lines of 113,000 faction points for all the skills and runes. Add in a few odd thousand for your weapon mods, call it 125,000.

Okay, corny analogy time. With respect to unlocking for PvP, going through the missions once is like using a machine gun, its fast and good for blasting through clumps and hitting random stuff. Unlocking through PvP is like using a sniper rifle, its slow, but precise, good for hitting those last couple things you want to get.

If you want to do PvP without ever doing PvE, if you consider going through the linear missions once "too much grind" then I am sorry, but this isn't a very good game for you. Everything that I remember reading about GW said, in some way shape or form, that this was a mix of PvE and PvP.

Kishin · Jun 30, 2005, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

pvp person who is complaining

long before this update came out a large number of you were saying

*JUST LET US EARN IT IN PVP WHICH IS FUN FOR US.

I DONT CARE IF IT TAKES LONGER THAN PVE BECAUSE I WILL BE DOING WHAT IS FUN FOR ME*

right

I'll going to give every PvE player who manages to post in this thread without being a snot nosed, elitist punk $5. Does killing mobs rather than people somehow makes you a better person and thereby entitled to be an arse? Perhaps you should try unlocking some of your skills with this system, and see how fast it goes. Or maybe you could just extrapolate the math out, as some people have done.

The funny thing is I came to this game being far more of a PvE person myself. I bought it with a group of friends from college so we could have some form of cooperative game to play while all living in different states. The PvP was not a big thing to me, at first. I think I became interested in it in no small part due to not wanting to be associated with the holier than thou pure PvE attitude.

Pitdragon · Jun 30, 2005, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acan Vishnu

If you want to do PvP without ever doing PvE, if you consider going through the linear missions once "too much grind" then I am sorry, but this isn't a very good game for you. Everything that I remember reading about GW said, in some way shape or form, that this was a mix of PvE and PvP.

And everything I remember reading about GW has said that they are making an effort to keep grinding to a minimum. I didn't say that the PvE was too much grind, I (and I'd imagine most players) can tolerate playing through it once, but at this point you need to play through it three times in order to unlock all the skills, unless you want to switch your secondary and grind for skill points. I don't know about you, but one time is enough for me, after that it becomes tedious. The fact of the matter is that the game was heralded as the casual gamer's mmorpg, when clearly casual gamers are getting screwed.

Some people don't have the time to spend every day playing with their uber-elite guild of likeminded players, and some people simply aren't content to do it. Why does this mean they should have to spend weeks or months getting the same content a hardcore player can get in one night? The players that play for 8 hours every day are the ones with the best skills, the best equipment, and therefor the best characters in PvP. How is this close to the concept of "skill > time spent playing" that Guild Wars supposedly supports? Unless you consider "having a lot of free time to play videogames" a skill, then the simple answer is that it doesn't.

Branskins · Jun 30, 2005, 04:49 PM // 16:49

The numbers are fine, your job as pvp players is to constantly pvp, what else would you be doing? So why are you complaining it will take 20 matches of this type, what else could you possibly be doing? Sitting in arenas?

Pitdragon · Jun 30, 2005, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Branskins

The numbers are fine, your job as pvp players is to constantly pvp, what else would you be doing? So why are you complaining it will take 20 matches of this type, what else could you possibly be doing? Sitting in arenas?

Our job? I forgot that playing a videogame was a job, thanks for reminding-oh right, it isn't!

This patch at least addresses some of the things people have been complaining about, but it doesn't in any way fix one of the major things, which is the grind. People who can afford to spend hours playing every day have huge advantages over people who either can't or don't want to, seeing as they have access to more skills, runes, and item mods. This goes against the very nature of a skill based game, and it seems like the only people who are arguing against that are the same people who are spending hours every day playing.